SWR (Stuffy White Republican): If you took a billion dollars from a rich man and spread it out to the roughly 300 million Americans, that would amount to about $3.00 each. There aren't enough rich people to make the poor not poor. Eventually, you run out of other people's money. You can't make the poor rich by making the rich poor.
Me: Well I think it is understood that we're not talking about some robin hood stuff here. By that same logic, you could just spread that billion dollars to 100,000 people at $10,000 each, which would help out I'm sure. This is not about stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. It's about everyone doing their fair share. Why do the wealthy pay a fraction, percentage-wise, of what you and I pay in taxes? I pay a shitload and I don't make shit, really. I don't even qualify for what is considered middle class according to the government.
So why do they get off paying absolutely nothing in most cases? To create jobs? Well, then why don't they? So far, they still have Bush-era tax breaks, but don't do anything but NOT create jobs and just get wealthier while everyone else gets poorer, middle-class shrinks, and the elitists keep shitting down that hill while talking out of caviar-mouths about how if they have to pay more taxes, how could they possibly afford to hire anyone in their companies. You CAN make the poor poorer by making the rich richer.
SWR: The government can create an environment in which business is unable to predict a future. Corporations will never pay taxes. The tax becomes a cost of doing business and will be passed to the consumer. Regulations can be beneficial as well as restrictive. If the business world has no idea what to expect, how does it grow?
There are some rich that are quite generous, setting up funds to help others. There are some that should probably do more. It is up to them. I would never suggest limiting what one could earn for their talent. The marketplace should do that.
Me: That's the problem; no one predicts the future. Not businesses, not governments, and not people. Ask Chase bank about predicting the future. Ask the housing kingpins. Obama didn't do that. Middle and lower class Americans didn't do that. Hell, even George Bush didn't do that and he's a fucking boob. Again, I'm not talking about forcing rich people to hand over their savings, nor am I talking about corporations forking over profits for no reason.
I mean fair taxation for all citizens and the elimination of corporate tax loopholes. The rich should keep their money because they earned it, but I'm talking about equal taxation and an environment that doesn't just benefit the wealthy.
Organizations the wealthy create are biased to whatever their preferences are, which is absolutely fair, but by no means beneficial to the country as a whole. If the Chick-fil-a guy only wants to give his money to conservative Christian groups, that's his right. But it doesn't benefit me personally as I am neither. And not that benefitting me certainly should not be his concern at all, but don't give America the excuse that this is why he doesn't pay taxes.
If I'm a millionaire and donate a large portion of my money to The Little-People Magicians Association of America, it is my right, but cannot be misconstrued as a contribution to society as a whole unless everyone was a midget illusionist. Now, a good portion of the country are bigots, so he may actually be contributing to the majority of society.
It's hardly fair when 50-60% of my income may have to be put towards simple necessities such as food or electricity and the percentage of a billionaire or millionaire's income towards the same things is barely measurable, and that person pays no taxes. I'm sorry, but there is no argument ever that could be given to me here or anywhere that can justify to me why some people should have to pay taxes and others do not.
It's illogical and people should be ashamed of not contributing their fair share to the very country that allowed them to have a fair share in the first place, and on the backs of the very people that their greed hurts the most; the middle and lower classes. So you just keep carrying water for Jamie Dimon until your fingers bleed and thank him when he and his ilk sodomize you and the rest of America because, to quote Mr. Dimon, "it's a free fucking country."
Regulations aren't meant to keep the rich from getting richer. I still haven't seen any evidence of a rich person's house getting foreclosed on. I haven't read the article about the millionaires who feed their kids stolen fistfuls of ketchup packets because they were laid off and have nothing. Matter of fact, they still seem to be doing pretty fucking well.
No one has ever proposed any kind of regulation or taxation that would limit anyone's income at all. Citizens or corporations. In fact, the lack of this sort of legislation is what has lead to the current ruthlessness with businesses. Predatory lending, anyone? Bank of America, I see you raised your hand. Oh, JP Morgan, there you are.
They get so fucking huge that the government cannot protect its citizens from them and their competition cannot when be considered such and are usually, eventually, consumed. Once you've bullied the government worse than a gay teenager and fucked all of your competition's prom dates, you can start doing things that are really crazy like issuing fluctuating mortgages to those who can barely read and write and who pay closing costs with chickens and a fine goat.
You get away with this because everyone around you who knows it is wrong is afraid of getting beat up. And you don't think that the government should do a little something from turning this country into the United States of Chase? Nothing at all, just chalk it up to the hazards of the market? Really? Then do we need a government in that case? Couldn't we just have a king, then? And by king I mean CEO.
And is that what it's called when you tax a rich person? "Limiting what one could earn for their talent?" So what do they call it when they tax a respiratory therapist? Or an IT guy like me? Patriotic? Does that look as silly in writing as it does to me to write it?
This is really an indefensible position. There's not much evidence thus far that we'd be crippling the rich by making them pay their share taxes any more than it cripples us (actually we are crippled way more than they ever would be by taxes). Or that it will bankrupt or "limit" them. Or that it will injure the economy. The economy has been injured pretty well without their contributions and without Obama or anyone else doing anything to anyone. I'm actually not very hyped about Obama because he's not tough enough on these issues.
B: Why the hell should anyone even have a billion dollars? Obviously, if they were creating jobs and helping the economy, they'd have spent some of it and not be hoarding it like Scrooge McDuck. Keep Romney's views on easing corporate burdens and keep Obama's views on making the rich pay their fair share and you've got a more powerful economy and middle class.
SWR: I am by no means against some assistance. It should, however, not become a multi-generational lifestyle. It should also not be taken advantage of or abused. I'm sure that at least 100,000 people defraud at least $10,000.00 in assistance. If the government would mind the money they do collect, perhaps more could be given where it is actually needed.
Bryan, Warren Buffett and Bill Gates are both billionaires. Most of their "worth" is in stock (paper) money, not cash. If either were to liquidate a significant portion of their portfolio the stock price would plummet. How many people would be crushed then?
B: It takes more government to monitor, so what do you want?
Me: Are we sure that 100,000 people defraud the government? What is defrauding? Listen, I know that plenty of people take advantage of a maligned system. I also know that plenty of less-fortunate people genuinely need help. I know that those who do consider themselves fortunate are the first to wag a finger at those who aren't and claiming that they are leading a "multigenerational lifestyle" of collecting government assistance.
Listen, let's be honest for a second. Are you going to hire an unskilled, mentally unstable homeless person to work for your company? Is anyone? OK, so let's go less extreme. Are you going to hire an unskilled black individual? Hispanic? A person with a criminal record trying to get their shit together? A Muslim? A young person with no experience and who couldn't afford school?
I don't think it is a shock to anyone that most companies/people would not. People who have a little something pump their fists in anger and tell the bums to get a fucking job, but don't ever think about how.
Who are you to say that this is a multi-generational lifestyle for the majority of the individuals who get assistance? Do you have figures, or did Dick Cheney tell you that? And do you think that these people are honestly proud of this? To teach their kids that this is the way things should be done? Do you think that, given a fair shot, that a majority portion of the lower class wouldn't leap at the chance to bust their ass to try and move up? Please allow me to fill in your answer: "Hell no they wouldn't! They're too comfortable collecting welfare checks and dealing drugs all day!"
To which I say only this: how many of these people are you friends with? How many do you even associate with? Name a person that you know the hardships they may or may not have faced in their life or what they do or do not have stacked against them, who has an honest-to-God chance at changing their life for the better, not laterally, and doesn't take that chance.
The government has, is, and will always be horrible at collecting money because it is an imperfect system created by humans, not computers. We're full of flaws and so is anything we create. But we cannot sit on our laurels and say that, "yeah, it's all fucked up, but that's just the way it is," or, "those poor people just need to go get a job and stop collecting welfare." The absolute majority of America is one medical disaster away from complete financial ruin and that's with insurance.
I keep reiterating this point, but I, nor any politician, is suggesting that Buffet or Gates cash in their assets and write the government a check. What is suggested is that everyone who makes an income, which they do (even if it is off of the stock market, they buy groceries somehow), be taxed.
That's it. It's not dramatic or complicated. Teams of armed government agents aren't kicking in rich people's doors to steal their big bags of gold coins they have laying around. Just income tax, pure and simple. Flat rate percentage. For everyone. Unless you're really fucking poor, then you're exempt until you reach a realistic position that you can contribute. It's not more than that, and it can't keep getting twisted into something other than that. Period. Everyone cooperates or everyone gets the fuck out.
And by the way, if an individual or single company can crush thousands of people by simply liquidating their resources, do you think that we should rely so much on them NOT doing it? It is their right, after all, and can legally and rightfully do so whenever they want to. And if so, should they not be taxed on the portion they liquidate?
My bank would hollow out my asshole with fees and taxes if I cash out some or all of my measly 401(k). Why aren't the wealthy? MYSELF, THE DEMOCRATS, THE LIBERALS, THE LEFT, OBAMA, HAVE NEVER SAID THAT AMERICA SHOULD STEAL ALL THE MONEY FROM THE RICH PEOPLE AND HAND IT TO EVERYONE WHO IS LESS THAN RICH BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO WORK.
Me: "Hey, middle-class right-wing guy, don't you think that if you pay 5% (example) of your income to the government, that rich people should also pay 5%?"
Right-wing Guy: ".........................."
Me: "Ok, great. And if they don't pay any taxes, you shouldn't either, right?"
RWG: "Hell no."
Me: "So then you're willing to lose all of the programs that taxes pay for OTHER THAN welfare also, right?"
RWG: "........................."
Me: "Hope you like e.coli from your meat, your hospitals more disgusting than they already are, your borders less secure, and your terrorist attacks fresh and bloody. Oh, and don't call the police or fire department when arsonist thieves burn your house to the ground because those departments don't exist." (I know this is city/county, just making a point).
The People have no further questions.
